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Diamond One Coat Veneer

 
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MDFAUX



Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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Location: Maryland
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:28 pm    Post subject: Diamond One Coat Veneer Reply with quote

Hi,
I was wondering if anyone might be able to tell me the proper way to do a one coat diamond veneer plaster. I've been working with the Diamond plaster for about a year and have had some success and some failures. It's tricky stuff~ especially if your pre tinting the plaster.
My Question is this~
On my first project I used the Imperial Base coat plaster and troweled that on 100%, let that dry overnight and the next day came back and troweled a light grey and a untinted (white) color together. Came out perfect. We had to work like crack heads but it came out just like I wanted. No cracking, nice consistency- good.
I then had a second project where I tried to eliminate the base coat plaster and just did a one coat veneer plaster and ~ It came out pretty terrible. I'm tinting the plaster and it dried super blotchy. I think that I might have mixed it too soupy and that might have attributed to the splotchiness.
We ended up putting UGL bonding agent over our first attempt and redoing. It looked better but still slightly splotchy.
I have been doing tests and tests and was wondering if I might be able to get some feedback on the proper way to do a one coat veneer plaster using the diamond finishing plaster. Is UGL the best bonding agent to use? What does the term "double back" mean exactly? I'm wondering if A scratch coat of diamond finish goes on and then a final coat (not exactly a one coat system then....)
Any thoughts or ideas on my one coat, colored veneer plaster~ thanks in advance!
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jt



Joined: 26 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the light spots are probably from spreading the coat to thin in areas. try for an over all even thickness and complete coverage. don't over thin the material. it should just slowly slide off a margin trowel when you get a scoop and turn the trowel on its side. put plenty of material on the first pass and flatten it out after it has set enough not to pull off but levels out easily (double back). work fast!
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MDFAUX



Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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Location: Maryland
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi Jt~
I'm mixing colorants into the plaster water and I've found that different colors make different thickness' of plaster. In other words- I can have lets say 20 ounces of water to 2 pounds of plaster plus my calculated pigments (for sample sizes) and a green color formula will give me a perfect consistency of plaster but a grey mixture will be soupier. Same exact proportions of water and plaster but different consistencies. Strange. And not too too much difference in the amount of colorants either. I thought that maybe the liquid of the colorants was adding to the soupier end result...but I dont think that's it.
Anyway~ yes~ I've been doing tests in my studio and it seems that the thinness of the plaster is what made the splotches. I will proceed with doing individual water formulas for each color that will translate into the bigger batches and not assume that every 30 lbs batch will take the same amount of water.
Could you by any chance tell me the most appropriate way to apply a one coat veneer plaster~ not using either the Diamond or Imperial basecoat?
Thank you!!
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jt



Joined: 26 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

your right that different pigments will effect the consistency of the plaster and also the set time (the time to get it on the wall and leveled out) before it sets hard. you just have to add a little more plaster powder to get it to the proper spreading consistency. a little more or less plaster per batch doesn't really effect the color all that much since mottled affect is part of the overall beauty of diamond coat. one question is ... are you doing a completely smooth finish or a little bit of a skip trowel effect?
new walls should be primed with a color close to the finish color of the plaster. then bonder all walls up to a week before the the veneer plaster is applied. then just trowel on a 1/8' to 3/16' coat solid coverage of plaster. if you want some texture you can add patches of plaster randomly and before it sets level it all out. then after it has set hard burnish with a clean stainless trowel. good luck with the project
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MDFAUX



Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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Location: Maryland
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jt~
I am keeping in a lot of the "catfaces" and making it slightly old and distressed. Not a full skip trowel.
I'm working over blue board with the joint compound joints. I had been using the UGL bonding agent which is clear but it's so drippy and watery~ it's hard to tell if your getting good coverage. Would you recommend putting two coats of bonding agent on the joints? Would you also recommend maybe putting on two coats of the bonding agent on the joints but also coating the rest of the wall with one even though it's blue board?
The pink bonding agents would not allow for the basecoat to be painted the matching color...but I like that idea. Any other clear bonding agent besides the UGL that you like working with?
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jt



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

usg makes a bonder that works well as does plaster weld. i'm not familiar with the ugl bonder but probably equally effective. you can add some pigment to the bonder so you can tell if you've got full coverage. they say u don't need to prime but for one coat plaster that you aren't painting over its cheap insurance to avoid joint flashing through the finish.
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MDFAUX



Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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Location: Maryland
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jt~
First off~ thank you so much for the time your taking to answer my questions!!! It's so helpful and I really appreciate it.
One last question on the bonding agent~ would you happen to know of any bonding agent that is white and are there any bonding agents that are under different names that are more easily picked up at home depot? Always handy if things can just be picked up there than finding a specialty supplier.
And~
Attached is a photo of a broken corner of another Diamond Finish application. It's unusually thick as you can see from this broken corner. Do you have any idea how to get Diamond to be so thick in one coat? In this photo there is a white base. I dont think it's just white from the Joint compound so I'm figuring it might be a white bonder (that's why I was asking above).
Thank you again!!!
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MDFAUX



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:14 am    Post subject: broken corner Reply with quote

Ill try sending that image again...


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MDFAUX



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:20 am    Post subject: broken corner Reply with quote

Ill try sending that image again...


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jt



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

all the bonders i've used are somewhat transparent when dry. i think that is white primer in the picture.( the reason i like to tint the primer) i would take the time to find a specialty supplier for your bonder and other items (plaster etc.) this finish is not a dyi project and i dont think home depot would carry it unless they can sell quantities to dyi'ers. also a good drywall/plaster supplier will be very helpful in answering the technical questions for their specific products.
you can mix diamond to a thicker consistancy and fill a hole like you have in the pic, be sure to bonder the edges of the existing plaster but not the face. you will be amazed at how thick you can put diamond on without any shrinkage.
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jt



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

one last tip: do small inconspicuous areas first so you can get your process down. also if you make a mistake and have to redo some it will be small areas and not the main wall in the living room!
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MDFAUX



Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HI Jt~
I have a specialty supplier and they have been very helpful, but very few people know about applying this plaster with color. It seems few people even work with this plaster at all anymore and if they do~ not in a decorative painting way. So being able to talk to someone who colors this is really great.I was just wondering if there was a brand of PVA at the home depot that did not have to be special ordered.
I kind of wondered how this application of Diamond was put on so thick in one coat~ not just be able to fill the hole. I have kind of been scolded on this site before for this not being a DIY plaster and I know~ I want to learn though. This is not something that you can just go take a class and there are many different ways people go about things and It's like getting a second and third doctors opinion if i'm able to find anyone to talk to this about at all.
Thanks again for all your feedback~ really helpful!
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The Plasterers Arms



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

weldbond....

tint it so you can see where you have primed...as is it will dry a translucent/white....you can also use white wood glue ...it is the same thing.

I wouldnt call the diamond in that image unusually thick...maybe slightly ...but not overly

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MDFAUX



Joined: 23 Dec 2009
Posts: 43
Location: Maryland
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Plaster Arms!
I had met this finisher earlier this year and he was pretty protective about his process. He said to me at this first meeting " I know how to put it on thick~ anyone can put on a thin coat of this stuff". Which got me thinking~ either it's a technique he's doing OR he's adding something to the mix to make it thicker? But whatever he's doing~ he made it sound like it was something other than a normal application. Whatever he's doing~ I like it. His work is very nice. I like the idea of putting it on a bit thicker for several reasons.
Any thoughts?
I'll pick up some Weldbond and it's a great tip to tint the bonder. That's a great idea.
Thank you!!
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MDFAUX



Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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Location: Maryland
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Plaster Arms!
I had met this finisher earlier this year and he was pretty protective about his process. He said to me at this first meeting " I know how to put it on thick~ anyone can put on a thin coat of this stuff". Which got me thinking~ either it's a technique he's doing OR he's adding something to the mix to make it thicker? But whatever he's doing~ he made it sound like it was something other than a normal application. Whatever he's doing~ I like it. His work is very nice. I like the idea of putting it on a bit thicker for several reasons.
Any thoughts?
I'll pick up some Weldbond and it's a great tip to tint the bonder. That's a great idea.
Thank you!!
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MDFAUX



Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

also~ I have no idea why my posts are being posted twice...sorry! I will try and figure out what the hell i'm doing to make that happen. Embarassed
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The Plasterers Arms



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adding sand is one possible way....# 70

or sand and retarder

mix the material thicker and retard it

Just because it or someone says one coat ...it doesnt actually mean it is one coat......one coat can be in 2/3 passes...the method just doesn't use the basecoat,each pass goes on while the previous pass is still wet.
If you want to do it in truly one coat sand the material and use a feather edge to straighten.

you can even buy the material pre sanded I believe

I dont know of any material in NA that does this but in europe there are lots of one coat prebagged plaster systems in the marketplace

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MDFAUX



Joined: 23 Dec 2009
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Location: Maryland
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. This sound like it's going to be many more weeks testing, but I'm up for it. I will investigate what you have advised. I have some retarder in the studio but have been shying away from it b/c I figured that would reallly start messing with the color... I will try.
And So~ you can layer Diamond over Diamond while it's still wet...I've been unsure of that. I bet you are right that it's probably a few passes but I have been also shy to start layering it for fear of cracking and the undercoats drying at different rates. I'll do tests.
Can you layer Diamond over Diamond without bonder if the first coat is totally dry and it's still a fresh application without any bad effects?
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The Plasterers Arms



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MDFAUX wrote:
Ok. This sound like it's going to be many more weeks testing, but I'm up for it. I will investigate what you have advised. I have some retarder in the studio but have been shying away from it b/c I figured that would reallly start messing with the color... I will try.
And So~ you can layer Diamond over Diamond while it's still wet...I've been unsure of that. I bet you are right that it's probably a few passes but I have been also shy to start layering it for fear of cracking and the undercoats drying at different rates. I'll do tests.
Can you layer Diamond over Diamond without bonder if the first coat is totally dry and it's still a fresh application without any bad effects?


no clue if it will mess with the color....the color with gypsum can be pretty unpredictable at best ...it is usually very close if you are carefull ....we always box all mixes anyways to get over this and always mix enough to complete each area corner to corner ...so its never a problem.

And So~ you can layer Diamond over Diamond while it's still wet...I've been unsure of that. I bet you are right that it's probably a few passes but I have been also shy to start layering it for fear of cracking and the undercoats drying at different rates. I'll do tests.

sure you can ...but wet is wet...not set and still "wet" actually->>>> wet

sand it if you are wanting a thick application

Can you layer Diamond over Diamond without bonder if the first coat is totally dry and it's still a fresh application without any bad effects?

sure but the suction would be unbearable ...this could only be to fix a screw up if otherwise ...why not use the basecoat? Just make sure there is some key ...hence why most would bond it....other then that scrape it to form a key.
==========================


when we used to do diamond on a large scale I would have specific people doing specific things ...in order ie first coat spreaders with first coat helpers ...mixing specifically for them and the same went for the second coat people...different helper ...different mix though.

heres a method for doing a small job on your own....this can be used for large crews too

mix your second coat first...and your first coat second ....retard your first mix....mix both before you start ...say your doing 200 feet alone ...mix enough to complete the area.

take your first coat mix (mixed second and possibly sanded) spread it and turn around and recoat with your second coat mix ( mixed first and retarded)
this way you loose no time in mixing between coats and by the time you use the second coat, mixed first mud ...it will be at the same consistency as the first coat material

its one eyed monkey work

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MDFAUX



Joined: 23 Dec 2009
Posts: 43
Location: Maryland
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HA! I was reading that other post earlier today! Maybe I'm just not promoting myself better.
I'm going to read and reread what you just wrote probably at least another 9 times and then i'll surely have another slew of questions.
Thank you~ Thank you for being so open and informative. It's beyond helpful.
I also looked at your website today and~ It's really nice! Your actual site itself is very nice, let alone your work.
Thank you~ I'll post soon.
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MDFAUX



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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:09 pm    Post subject: cracking Reply with quote

Hello.
I've been trying to tint fairly dark colors in the Diamond lately and I'm starting to get cracking when the dark colors dry. Not exceeding 12 oz. to 50 lbs plaster though.
I've been doing some samples over regular drywall with the pink plaster weld and going right over with the dark tinted Diamond~ no base coat.
Do you think that using a base coat with the darker colors would help with the cracking?
What's up with the cracking~ any ideas? I feel like I've done some darker reds and purples without cracking, but the darker blues and greys~ crack.
If you have any thoughts or feedback~ I'd really love to hear.
Thank you and happy holiday weekend!
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The Plasterers Arms



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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

when your going over the plaster weld ...is it dry? or tacky? when you coat it.

there are so many variables here its not funny...you say blue board in your posts ...but is is blue board as in grand prix board? does it have thousands of tiny holes in the paper face?
ie: real plaster board?
some "blue boards" have an acrylic coating on the surface and are intended for bathrooms
pretty sure it is not the colorant causing your cracking
describe your exact and whole process when you got these cracks

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MDFAUX



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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello again!
I do my samples on 3/8" regular drywall and put a coat of the pink plaster weld over before plastering. I normally put the plaster on about 24 hours after I've put on the plaster weld. I've read that you have (if i am remembering correctly) 5 to 7 days to put plaster over the plaster weld as the moisture in the plaster will reactivate the plaster weld. So~ I'm not putting the plaster on while it's still tacky. The clear plaster bonder seems to be a lot more time sensitive and i like the "open time" of the pink plaster weld for that reason.

So then I have my drywall with a coat of plaster weld and I mix anywhere between 16 to 21 ounces of water for every 2.5 lbs of Diamond finish, depending on the color. First I take my measured colorants and pour the measured water into the pigments~ getting all the pigments out of he container with a brush. Then I weigh my plaster and pour the "pigment water" into the plaster and mix using a drill.

It's SUPER hot in my studio right now and I'm going to get an air conditioner tomorrow to see if that helps. Though some of these ghosting and cracking problems happened once in an air conditioned room before too.

First I thought that the cracking was due to too much water added into the mix (which that probably needed to be corrected for other reasons) but not necessarily causing the cracking. Then I thought it was the plaster bonder so I switched from the clear watery kind to the pink thicker kind~ but I dont think that is it either. I'm using colorants from PPG~ which is made by Color trend- as far as I know.

The blue board on site is imperial blue board~ no tiny holes just blue face paper which apparently has the bonder in the paper.

Gees~ am I missing steps to tell you? I tried today to see if cracking would occur with a darker color over base coat~ and it did~ it cracked. Not quite as much, but it did. And It's strange b/c I have tried some colors with more tints in them and they didnt crack.
Lately~ all my darker blues are cracking.

Thank you again and again for your feedback!!!!!!!! I cant tell you how helpful you have been.
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