"Post tenebras spero lucem" - help needed !!

PetiteMarie · Joined: 03 Oct 2008 Posts: 394 Location: South of France

Hi guys,
I did the best I could but I'm not completely pleased with it (spec. the lady and the "lion legs"...)

Feel like I spent so many hours nose on it I can't judge anymore!!
Advices mostly welcome then !!

"Post tenebras spero lucem"

arlene · Joined: 14 Aug 2006 Posts: 7769

I think it is magnificent, the only critique I have is maybe Apollo? is just a little flat , he could pop a little more, only the chest and arm, the head is spectacular!

sonol'artista · Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:11 am Post subject:

NOTHING is wrong.....the only thing I see is I would define the fingers a little more with shading to make it "pop" against the frame. I love it.

Theresa

Jodi · Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 6357 Location: Chicago

It's beautiful!!!! I think it is wonderful but if the lions legs bother you maybe they aren't angled enough?? Is that what is bothering you about it?
I think the lady is great!!!

Surfempress · Joined: 27 Aug 2006 Posts: 861 Location: Colorado

It's fantastic. I love it.

mladyjoy · Joined: 28 Jan 2007 Posts: 2851 Location: Illinois

Marie it's a beautiful piece and I understand your feelings though. Smile

my humble opinion is only that... an opinion.

When I first glance at it the blackness behind Apollo? I am not sure what it is...draping? or marble? or shadow? it's so intense it fades the beauty of the rest of the composition. Your 'window' is so soft and lovely it needs more depth or darker places to help balance out with the blackness behind Apollo. I think the clouds are perfect!! Once you darken the framework the sky will glow even more!

The design at the bottom the compass rose? forget the real name...is so strong and beautiful it also fades out the softness of the window and upper part of the painting. So to balance I would add more darker places in the framework and the roses at the top and it's shadow. The bird is also very strong and pretty!

The lion's feet are already done, I can't see changing too much... what if you add some height and thickness to the paws making them stronger looking as to be able to hold up the composition for balance?

I agree with the other suggestions as well.. stronger shadows...sometimes I think with shadows we shy away from them for fear of messing up! lol.. I know I do! Smile

LOVELY LOVELY work Marie!!! Is this a commission with special requests for all these elements or just something you wanted to do? Smile

KathyFakesIt · Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:19 am Post subject:

Really great - sorry I can't offer anything

Kim S · Joined: 26 Jul 2006 Posts: 1708 Location: Vermont

i agree a darker value for the foreground will be more commanding, i've done a quick overlay in photoshop to demo

Pat · Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject:

Very pretty Marie. Great advice already given. Really lovely.

Jeanne S · Joined: 29 Nov 2007 Posts: 1521 Location: New York

I love it, especially the deepening on photoshop.... It's more dramatic and spectacular... !!!!!!!! Just tweek a teense and your there, jmo xoxo Very Happy

Linda Marsteller · Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 2282 Location: Winter Park, FL

I love it. I am all for shadows, however. Maybe just deepen the shadows, especially in and around the lion's feet/legs and elsewhere. That's my only suggestion. Makes things more dimensional.

Ron Francis · Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:49 am Post subject:

Marie,
Is your problem with the figure looking too flat?
It's difficult to critique without the original reference to look at, but it looks like it could use some more modelling if you are trying to make it look more like a 3d sculpture.

There are large areas of flat colour in it which will make it look flatter and more like a drawing.

One area for example is the area from the bridge of her nose through to her cheek bone.
There are several distinct planes through this area and they should all have different values to create form as they turn away and towards the light.
Also the chest, arm and shoulder all look the same value.

But this is something that should be done at the beginning of a painting and it's called big form modelling. You only go to the detail when you are happy with the big form modelling.
It's not something that you can just fix in one go as it takes many years of study and practice to master it. There are many artists that make me look like an amateur in this regard, and I'm not being modest.
Here's a quote from a wonderful artist, Dorian Iten:

bkc · Joined: 29 Mar 2007 Posts: 275

Hi Marie,
I will cut to the chase and say that although I find each individual element very well painted, the overall feeling is just. Really. Weird.
There are a few inconsistencies, such as the fact that your frame has a cast shadow onto the skyscape, but the bird does not, or that the figure does not register on the frame. More importantly this feels like a complete cut and paste and thus lacks cohesiveness.
I can't even wrap my head around a construct in which this makes sense.
My apologies for sounding harsh, because I know that you are a very talented painter.

What is this image for if I may ask.
Maybe part of the reason that the image looks a little stilted is that it is an assignment, or for a class where all the different elements need to be incorporated. In which case this makes a lot more sense.

BTW are you going to be at Versailles in April? Was your application accepted? I really do hope to meet you then.

sincerely,
benjamin

bkc · Joined: 29 Mar 2007 Posts: 275

DOH.

Of course just having read the title....
You obviously did get into salon, since it is a SUN dial, and the motto reads (i am guessing) "after the darkness comes light" (or we hope for light, or something like that).

Carry on...

(still either the frame and the bird cast a shadow, or neither do, you can't do half and half)

PetiteMarie · Joined: 03 Oct 2008 Posts: 394 Location: South of France

Waw ! So many responses ! First I have to thank you all for the time you took for me.

Sooooo...
Of course it IS my submission for Versailles Salon
(I want to make it !! I want to make it !!! I want to make it !!!!!)

I will definitely reinforce the shading of the entire panel and darken it to balance the black "veil" of the figure (supposed to be sculped marble, theresa).

By popular demand, the lion legs :

Ron, here is my ref for the figure (comes from Le Bernin)
I unfortunately don't possess 10% of your mastery... but I'm working hard and your advices are very precious, thank you, I'm honored you stopped here.

Pareil pour toi, Benjamin. I'm happy to read your always-focused never-harsh advice. The latin text reads indeed "After darkness, I'm hoping fot light". I confess the bird was a (maybe clumsy) eye-fooling : I wanted it to appear a first glance to be painted on the painted sky, BUT by going past the frame (tail and legs) question the viewer at second look... (see inspirations below) Mmmhhh... seems this is not exactly a success (yet) Rolling Eyes

As you say : I will carry on !!!

THANKS THANKS THANKS to everybody.

(MBERGER Christoph, c. 1552)

(1764, CHARLES A. PHILIPPE VAN LOO)

Ron Francis · Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:57 pm Post subject:

Ah Marie, yes she is beautiful.
What may help in the future, if you have photo editing software, is turn the image to black and white and posterize it.
(If you don't, then I can suggest a good free one if you're interested.)

In the image below, I have used 8 shades of grey.
I would start a painting like this just blocking in the main values, then blend them together.

If you step back away from that image and squint your eyes, she should look fairly solid again.

anita · Joined: 16 Jun 2006 Posts: 2736 Location: upstate New York

Marie,

I think you have to focus on not being afraid of deepening your shadows. Look at each element of your reference photo, for example, an eyelid, a nostril, one joint of a finger and squint your eyes a little while you quickly compare it with your own painting. Trying not to look at the whole all at once can help. Also make sure your light source is consistent throughout the piece. I would think it easiest to conform all light to that on the figure.

On my own piece displayed at the Chicago Salon, I was counseled by several European painters/masters that although I had executed the various elements well, I tried to show too many areas of skill. (in my case, pietre dure, trompe loeil stone, and gilded chinoiserie). I was advised if I was going to do something in marble, do it all marble, or if stone, do it all in stone. I had erringly thought that showing all areas of expertise was what was expected of me. However, Salon is supposed to be a life-long commitment so this year it can be marble, next year wood, etc. (some masters concentrate on only one area, and it becomes, this year is oak, next year is walnut, etc.)

On the other hand, the American painters loved the cacophony and thought it was a great piece. You are going to be displaying in Europe. Stick with the European sensibility of composition. You can go crazy when you come to NYC in 2011. (BTW, You are exceedingly strong on your marbles.)

Hopefully this helps. Know you can do it.

Anita

patty_artist · Joined: 10 Jul 2007 Posts: 1122 Location: Oak Ridge NJ

Thank-you Marie for posting your work. I am sure you will resolve your issues, but thank-you, as well, everyone else for your insightful critique. And Ron the link is especially helpful.

Jodi · Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 6357 Location: Chicago

Wow Anita, I would think that was the most awesome bit of advice, if I knew what I was talking about. Shocked

Brilliant!!!
I think your work at SALON was purely sublime.

kris · Joined: 12 Aug 2007 Posts: 166

Ron
What software are you using to do the grayscale image ?

jdavis · Joined: 24 Aug 2006 Posts: 205 Location: Indiana

Marie, the thing that seems odd to me is the elbow. The drape looks like marble which is confusing. If it were marble the elbow wouldn't it be resting on top of it not disappearing under it??

Kris adobe photoshop has a grayscale posterizing filter.

Ron Francis · Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:54 pm Post subject:

kris,
I normally use Corel Photopaint, but you can do the same in Adobe Photoshop.
I think I actually did the one above in a free program called XnView.
In all cases, you convert it to a grey scale first (256 shades), then posterize it.

Jeff,
If you have a look at the image of the sculpture that Marie posted, you can see that the elbow does indeed go under the cloth.

Elena · Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 6283 Location: Murphy, NC

I'm saving this lesson to My Favorites too!

Marie, I agree with the shadows confussion, if you said

jdavis · Joined: 24 Aug 2006 Posts: 205 Location: Indiana

right Ron, I guess what I was trying to say is that it looked more like marble than a drape because the print on the material looks similar to marble. Maybe if the folds "read" better??

PetiteMarie · Joined: 03 Oct 2008 Posts: 394 Location: South of France

Thanks to all for this VERY HELPFUL & precious advices !!! Very Happy

I was a little bit afraid to show the panel here, but now i'm conviced it was the right thing to do !!

I'm seriously thinking of following some posts here and let this one "calm down" for a bit, take more time to re-work it, and submit a simpler but more meticulous composition (and more "wood and/or marble-oriented") for Salon. I will definitely keep you posted...

THANKS again !!
Marie